HelpMeFind Roses, Clematis and Peonies
Roses, Clematis and Peonies
and everything gardening related.
Lee H.
most recent yesterday HIDE POSTS
Initial post 3 days ago by Michael Garhart
Rose Listing Omission

Esprit de Paris

From the Delbard Japan (delbard-japonDOTcom) official site, and translated to english, is states:

Flower color dark pink, light yellow bicolor
Flower Period: Four Seasons Blooming
Tree height, width, tree shape 0.7 m × 0.7 m, bush
Flowers 8 cm in diameter, medium-large-flowered
Flower shape: wavy petals, double bloom
Blooming in all seasons ★★★

tree is just bush as a mistranslation.
Reply #1 of 4 posted 3 days ago by Lee H.
Reynolds Hole often referred to them as “trees”, and that’s good enough for me! ;-)
Reply #2 of 4 posted yesterday by Michael Garhart
Imagine arborist prices for rose maintenance :)

Hoping they add this rose. It smells wonderful, and its short unlike most Austins. Foliage is a lot like Julie Andrews.
Reply #3 of 4 posted yesterday by jedmar
Added, thank you! It is indeed very much like 'Pink Paradise' ('Julie Andrews'). A synonym?
Reply #4 of 4 posted yesterday by Michael Garhart
No, I own both. Similar color and foliage, but very different bloom size, shape, fragrance, and plant size.
most recent yesterday HIDE POSTS
Initial post 2 days ago by Michael Garhart
So, 1st year review, so far. Foliage health and vigor seem good. Form is very nice, and so is bloom size. No scenthere, but its too early for that. Sometimes scent in roses kicks in when the root system is mature.

Here is the issue. I would not get it again... the color is not what I expected. Yes, its pastel. I assumed a color similar to Elina. It's somewhere between white, yellowed-cream, and... the color of dusty sand that almost approaches dirty ochre. I hate it lol. I'll keep it. It's a nice rose, but the color definitely needs drowned out by other cutting roses. Well, unless you're into that color.
Reply #1 of 2 posted yesterday by Lee H.
Michael, could you please post a picture of yours? It seems there have been no photos posted.
Reply #2 of 2 posted yesterday by Michael Garhart
I will later this year or next year. I already harvested the blooms to examine them up close.
most recent 5 days ago SHOW ALL
Initial post 16 APR 18 by HubertG
The breeder's description gives the parentage as 'Alba rosea x Sylphide'.
From page 76 of the 1891 Rosen-Zeitung.
Reply #1 of 6 posted 19 APR 18 by Patricia Routley
That's different. Reference added.
Reply #2 of 6 posted 19 APR 18 by HubertG
Here's the full description from the same source:

"Neuste Rosen für 1892 (Beschreibungen der Züchter)

Züchter: Soupert & Notting - Luxemburg ...

5. Léon XIII. Strauch kräftig, hellgrüne Belaubung; Blume gross, gefüllt, in Büscheln blühend, 5 bis 6 Blumen auf jedem Zweige, schalenförmig; Farbe glänzend porzellanweiss, sehr zart gelb nuanciert im Zentrum. Varietät extra. (Alba rosea x Sylphide.)"

My translation:

Newest roses for 1892 (descriptions of the breeders)

Breeder: Soupert & Notting - Luxembourg

5. Léon XIII. Bush vigourous, light green foliage; Flower large, double, blooming in clusters, 5 to 6 flowers on each shoot, shallowly cupped; Colour lustrous porcelain white, nuanced with very delicate yellow in the centre. Exceptional variety. (Alba rosea x Sylphide.)

[Of the other four roses from Soupert & Notting described, three also have their parentages given.]
Reply #3 of 6 posted 19 APR 18 by Patricia Routley
Thank you HubertG
Reply #4 of 6 posted 6 days ago by odinthor
It's hard to tell what's going on with the parentage. In 1892, the Journal of Roses, giving "the descriptions of them copying verbatim [*textuellement*] the prospectus addressed to us, leaving all responsibility to the breeders" (the implication being that the prospectus was from the breeder), gives the parentage as 'Anna Olivier' x 'Earl of Eldon'. (Journal of Roses, 1892, p. 138 (for the "textuellement" comment) and p. 139 (for the variety's description)). I note that, the same year, Tea 'Léonie Osterrieth', also from S&N, has parentage 'La Sylphide' x 'Alba Rosea'. Maybe it's worth noting that Soupert & Notting, in listing their own varieties, would have 'Léon XIII' and 'Léonie Osterrieth' adjacent; the eye could easily skip. In his 1893 catalog, Lambert repeats the Olivier/Eldon parentage, and doesn't change/correct it in 1894.
Reply #5 of 6 posted 6 days ago by Lee H.
Just FYI, the same parentage is repeated in the 1894 Journal.
Reply #6 of 6 posted 5 days ago by odinthor
Thanks--much appreciated!
most recent 14 days ago SHOW ALL
Initial post 9 JAN 23 by MiGreenThumb
This is one of those roses I love the look and description of, but it's a victim of Jackson & Perkins absolutely terrible, cringe-worthy, uninspiring, overly commercialized, cutesy, and even downright embarrassing naming program. A child could do better. If the state of their business with how they name roses yields results like this, I feel like it's no wonder that the rest of the organization fell into bankruptcy if it had the same sort of approach and planning!
This is a rose that would probably not acquire due to the name. Maybe I could call it by the breeder code or just give it a much better nickname in my own garden.
I want to try it, and the notes of those whom have grown this rose encourage me.
I love its look, hate the name.
Reply #1 of 11 posted 10 JAN 23 by Nastarana
I wonder if it might be time for some of us to agree among ourselves on some better names for worthy new roses. American writers, respected actors, maybe even American rivers and other geographical features might be among the names considered.
Reply #7 of 11 posted 29 MAY by Benaminh
—edit: duplicate post—
Reply #8 of 11 posted 29 MAY by Benaminh
I wish they would stop naming roses after politicians or their spouses. Might as well name it after a tapeworm or some other parasite. One of my favorite roses is JACsegra — got 20 of them in my garden — but I will never call it by its given name! <YUCK>
Reply #9 of 11 posted 29 MAY by Michael Garhart
Just call it 'Some Dude'. My family calls the 'Helen Robinson' rose 'British Lady', because we can never remember it. It has no affinity to us. It's a random name to those of us not in the UK or those that follow RHS culture.
Reply #10 of 11 posted 14 days ago by Lee H.
I rather think you’d be happier with AUSpeet.
Reply #11 of 11 posted 14 days ago by Benaminh
Touché, tell that to all the altar boys. Charles Darwin is another one of my favorites — can’t live without it.
Reply #2 of 11 posted 23 MAY 23 by drossb1986
I too hate the name. However, it's a really great rose that far surpasses the lackluster name. It's very vigorous, blooms its head off, and has unique coloring...kinda like Vavoom but with a milky tone. It is so good IMO it almost falls into that Knockout-Iceberg-Belinda's Dream category of easy-to-grow roses.
Reply #3 of 11 posted 24 MAY 23 by Nastarana
There does not seem to be a patent. It could be propagated and sold under any name the seller cared to use.

Do we know who, exactly, at J & P is responsible for the horrible naming?
Reply #4 of 11 posted 24 MAY 23 by Lee H.
Something that bad must have been by committee.
Reply #5 of 11 posted 24 MAY 23 by Nastarana
The committee is hiding behind anonymity and is likely dominated by one overbearing person who wants things to be "cute" and "positive". Unless and until names are publicly named, the offensive monikers will likely keep coming. Protests by Asian Americans, a community of free spending avid gardeners, over 'Ch-Ching'--no way would I buy that, though it looks to be an excellent rose--had no effect on J&Ps naming practices. The worst part of this is that many folks don't realize that the breeders have no say in names, nor, according to Peter Schneider, even on which roses are selected for release.
Reply #6 of 11 posted 26 MAR by Michael Garhart
Breeders have very little control unless its something like Kordes -- a corporate xfamily affair. Then, I don't know. Even then, they are still at the whim of factors as random as a big box store buyer's lunch choice that fateful day in some random city, USA, that Kordes or whoever have never even been to.

The entire process of rose selection and production is honestly a bizarre affair. Wholesale horticulture in general is an odd duck.

Breeders can say no, I don't want my rose produced, and if they have power (which is ungodly rare), some say in some things. But a breeder would not say no because that's tossing potential money away, unless they saw that going forward would be a financial hit.
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